Standing up to bullies with Frans Timmermans

In his next job as first vice president of the European Commission, he squared off with right-wing populists like the UK's Nigel Farage and with autocratically minded leaders in Hungary and Poland.

Last year Timmermans, a member of the Dutch Labour Party, led a passionate and energetic campaign to become the president of the Commission.

And for a week it seemed he would be appointed.

But his tenaciousness had stirred too much bad blood with Budapest and Warsaw, and that opened the way for conservatives to coalesce around a Christian Democrat alternative, Ursula von der Leyen.

Timmermans took a role overseeing the European Green Deal as one of the Commission's three executive vice presidents.

To succeed he needs to stand up to governments and vested interests rushing to reboot economies crashed by the coronavirus.

That means ensuring the trillions of euros that the EU and its member states spend transform rather than entrench polluting industries and infrastructure.

Timmermans starts off his first podcast interview with how songwriters from Jacques Brel to Bruce Springsteen have been a source of solace and inspiration for him.